Utopia Talk / Politics / Why is the left pushing assisted dying?

Rugian Member	Fri Nov 29 09:45:35 First we had Canada legalize this shit, with the result that people with disabilities or diseases are just straight up being told by their doctors to kill themselves. Now we have the UK legalizing it as well. http://www...ts-end-lives-initial-approval/ It's not enough for the left to try and kill as many unborn babies as possible, telling women that having children is detrimental to their career and outright offering to pay for them to get abortions. Now we have them trying to off the elderly as well. Why does the left hate human life so much?
Rugian Member	Fri Nov 29 09:48:30 "Vote Labour, we'll kill your grandmother" Jesus Christ Seb. Surely the NHS isn't doing THAT poorly.
jergul large member	Fri Nov 29 10:22:18 How else will "they" replace us?
tumbleweed the wanderer	Fri Nov 29 11:09:33 why does the right want dying people to suffer & horribly malformed babies to be kept alive?
Paramount Member	Fri Nov 29 11:35:08 ”Although the bill was proposed by a member of the ruling center-left Labour Party, it was an open vote with alliances formed that bring together those who are usually political foes. At its heart, the bill would allow adults over the age of 18 who are expected to have fewer than six months to live to request and be provided with help to end their life, subject to safeguards and protections. They would have to be capable of taking the fatal drugs themselves. Other countries that have legalized assisted suicide include Australia, Belgium, Canada and parts of the United States, with regulations on who is eligible varying by jurisdiction.”
murder Member	Fri Nov 29 12:53:30 "Why is the left pushing assisted dying?" Because it's their life and mind your own fucking business. Keep your stupid religious superstitions to yourself.
jergul large member	Fri Nov 29 13:34:09 Dont you guys recognise a troll thread when you see it? Imo, I win thread with my response.
murder Member	Fri Nov 29 17:08:09 The right is opposed to assisted suicide.
jergul large member	Fri Nov 29 18:47:36 You think Ruggy was aiming for a frank and open discussion?
murder Member	Fri Nov 29 19:05:38 How often is that even a thing here?
jergul large member	Fri Nov 29 19:13:41 Fair enough. Still, I think my response is a winner. Nothing beats casually insinuating replacement theory is the reason someone is anti-death.
Seb Member	Sat Nov 30 13:25:09 Rugian, firstly it's a private members bill and health secretary voted against. Secondly, if you've ever had someone you love die of a debilitating illness they'd rather have opted out of, you would understand the issues better perhaps. Thirdly, you miss the point that the UK decriminalised suicide, but continued to explicitly criminalise assisting someone to do so. At the moment, those that want to end their lives rather than go through a horrible, painful and undignified end have to do so earlier than they might otherwise. And when they do so, they expose their loved ones to a lengthy criminal investigation by the police and referral to CPS, and if it turns out they were aware or could in someway be an assist, that then hinges on entirely on a prosecutors judgement of a public interest test to avoid prosecution. Many terminally ill people travel to Switzerland where it's legal. There's no doubt they are doing so of their free will. But if anyone else is involved in booking tickets or travelling with them, they are open to prosecution. How can that be right? That we force free people who have decided they don't want to die long, lingering deaths to die earlier when they have a period of life they could enjoy, and to do so alone, with the knowledge they may incriminate their relatives?
Seb Member	Sat Nov 30 13:37:08 Rugian, firstly it's a private members bill and health secretary voted against. Secondly, if you've ever had someone you love die of a debilitating illness they'd rather have opted out of, you would understand the issues better perhaps. Thirdly, you miss the point that the UK decriminalised suicide, but continued to explicitly criminalise assisting someone to do so. At the moment, those that want to end their lives rather than go through a horrible, painful and undignified end have to do so earlier than they might otherwise. And when they do so, they expose their loved ones to a lengthy criminal investigation by the police and referral to CPS, and if it turns out they were aware or could in someway be an assist, that then hinges on entirely on a prosecutors judgement of a public interest test to avoid prosecution. Many terminally ill people travel to Switzerland where it's legal. There's no doubt they are doing so of their free will. But if anyone else is involved in booking tickets or travelling with them, they are open to prosecution. How can that be right? That we force free people who have decided they don't want to die long, lingering deaths to die earlier when they have a period of life they could enjoy, and to do so alone, with the knowledge they may incriminate their relatives?
Seb Member	Sat Nov 30 13:46:14 Obviously safeguards are necessary, the current bill provides for them. The doors stories from Canada raise eyebrows but I also remember the dishonest stories K street pedaled about the UK during the passage of Obamacare so I question how accurate they are. The true slippery slope here is having a law that criminalises assistance while a culture of turning a blind eye based purely on the whim of a prosecutor. It used to be very common in the final days or hours that a terminal patient in pain might be given higher doses of pain relief that would ensure comfort but would also inevitably shorten life. That's increasingly not possible after that monster Harold Shipman murdered hundreds. For my part, if I had terminal bowel cancer, I'd prefer a dose of barbiturates than choking on regurgitated faeces. I'd like to exercise that choice at the latest possible moment in a comfortable bed having said goodbye to my loved ones; not months earlier while still fit to travel, alone, in a foreign country, in secret to save my family months to years of financial and legal uncertainty. I think you'd prefer that too, Rugian. Making this yet another part of the culture war just shows the moral and ethical abyss at the heart of the American "right".
obaminated Member	Sat Nov 30 13:50:29 If you have a mental disorder and are suicidal you should be taken to a hospital and given aid. The danger is when private companies are being allowed to exist to aid in suicide. For obvious reasons.
murder Member	Sat Nov 30 13:57:44 Age and health should have nothing to do with it. It's your life. When you're done with it, you shouldn't have to get permission to dispose of it.
Seb Member	Sat Nov 30 14:02:05 murder: It's more that other people might need permission to help you.
murder Member	Sat Nov 30 14:16:25 "It's more that other people might need permission to help you." The deceased already gave them permission.
obaminated Member	Sat Nov 30 14:16:29 Murder doing the edgy teen thing again. If a perfectly healthy 30 year has everything going for them but they are suffering from suicidal depression only a fucking moron (read edgy teen) would think they arent in need a severe mental help. Murder is the guy who would encourage Ellen Paige to cut off her tits because the voices in her head were telling her too. "It's her body and life."
Seb Member	Sat Nov 30 14:24:48 Murder: Or... did they?
murder Member	Sat Nov 30 15:10:34 "Murder doing the edgy teen thing again. If a perfectly healthy 30 year has everything going for them but they are suffering from suicidal depression only a fucking moron (read edgy teen) would think they arent in need a severe mental help." You are in severe need of mental help. That doesn't give me the right to force it on you. Here's a crazy idea ... make mental health care available to everyone so that anyone who wants or needs it can access it. Nah, that socialism. Right wingers only give enough of a fuck to impose their bullshit on you, but not to actually help people in need. "Murder is the guy who would encourage Ellen Paige to cut off her tits because the voices in her head were telling her too." I wouldn't encourage or discourage her because mind your own fucking business.
murder Member	Sat Nov 30 15:12:23 "Or... did they?" That's easy enough to determine.
Seb Member	Sat Nov 30 15:31:14 Murder: It gets messy. We've seen it here. I'd rather have a clear process with a rights framework that protects individuals and their families.
murder Member	Sat Nov 30 16:38:01 I'd rather governments not act like citizens are their property.
Seb Member	Sat Nov 30 16:50:51 Murder: That's lovely, but also the state has a responsibility to stop people killing other people; and fake suicide letters are a thing; so obviously there is a tension there. Or maybe in the interests of bodily autonomy we want to stop the state criminalising murder too?
Seb Member	Sat Nov 30 16:52:27 Did Mrs Doe help her husband ease his own suffering, or did she poison him and fake a suicide note? Well, in the meantime the accounts are frozen, probate is held up and Mr Doe's body is being retained as evidence. Not an ideal situation.
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